Curse

wizard of d e a t h · Oct 20, 2007, 10:14 PM // 22:14

i'm looking for a healing monk build and a protection monk build think is i have no idea where to start as i havent been playing long and i use my n/mes all the time
anyone got any ideas

thanks in advance

isamu kurosawa · Oct 20, 2007, 10:29 PM // 22:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by wizard of d e a t h

i'm looking for a healing monk build and a protection monk build think is i have no idea where to start as i havent been playing long and i use my n/mes all the time
anyone got any ideas

thanks in advance

its much more effective to run2 hybrid monks than one heal and one prot. I tend to use the following:

healing 12+1
divine 10+1
prot 8+1+1
(or any mix you want)

monk #1

RoF
LoD
Dwayna's kiss
Guardian
Prot spirit
Dismiss Condition
Cure hex
optional (res if needed, otherwise GoLe works well)

monk #2

RoF
LoD
Dwayna's kiss (sometimes words of comfort)
shield of absorbsion
spirit bond
mend Condition
holy veil
optional (same again)

Ensign · Oct 20, 2007, 10:45 PM // 22:45

Assuming you're playing in an 8 man area, LoD/Prot is the best Hero Monk to take. If you take 2 Hero Monks, the second Monk should also be LoD/Prot. If you take 3 Hero Monks, I'm pretty sure the 3rd one should be LoD/Prot as well.

Bars should be:

Light of Deliverance
Dwayna's Kiss
Dismiss Condition
Cure Hex
Protective Spirit or Spirit Bond (always at least one Prot Spirit)
Aegis / Shield of Absorption / Signet of Rejuvenation / Guardian (pick two)
Glyph of Lesser Energy (or a res if you really need one here)

12+1+1 Healing Prayers
9+1 Protection
9+1 Divine Favor

(can swap the attribues to 8+1/10+1 if you don't need the breakpoint)

wizard of d e a t h · Oct 20, 2007, 11:07 PM // 23:07

hmm ok i'll try a hybrid thanks

Wish Swiftdeath · Oct 21, 2007, 02:06 AM // 02:06

maybe its just me but i usually bring LOD and something else(usually LOD, other times SoD/RC/Divert/BL/ZB) depending on the area.

Only time i run dual LOD is on stuff like the last destroyer mission or the dragons lair

isamu kurosawa · Oct 21, 2007, 11:51 AM // 11:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wish Swiftdeath

maybe its just me but i usually bring LOD and something else(usually LOD, other times SoD/RC/Divert/BL/ZB) depending on the area.

Only time i run dual LOD is on stuff like the last destroyer mission or the dragons lair

I occasionally take RC if i'm the 2nd monk rather than a hero, but most often i find 2x LoD is the most effective in PvE.

Chthon · Oct 21, 2007, 08:06 PM // 20:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Assuming you're playing in an 8 man area, LoD/Prot is the best Hero Monk to take. If you take 2 Hero Monks, the second Monk should also be LoD/Prot. If you take 3 Hero Monks, I'm pretty sure the 3rd one should be LoD/Prot as well.

Bars should be:

Light of Deliverance
Dwayna's Kiss
Dismiss Condition
Cure Hex
Protective Spirit or Spirit Bond (always at least one Prot Spirit)
Aegis / Shield of Absorption / Signet of Rejuvenation / Guardian (pick two)
Glyph of Lesser Energy (or a res if you really need one here)

12+1+1 Healing Prayers
9+1 Protection
9+1 Divine Favor

(can swap the attribues to 8+1/10+1 if you don't need the breakpoint)

I hate to disagree, but, whatever its merits as a player build, the hero AI handles this build very, very poorly. I tried it out yesterday specifically because you posted it, and it was just painful to watch. Dunkoro spammed PS pretty much to the exclusion of everything else on the bar (except for cure hex and dismiss condition), often on targets that didn't need it, and bottomed out his energy pretty much instantly at the start of every fight as a result. It often seemed like he was trying to use PS like a straight heal for the DF bonus, even though he had kiss available... When he finally did decide to cast LoD, he was often slow with it because he had to regen up to 5e first. Unless you are disabling PS and using it manually, (or your Dunkoro is just smarter than mine,) I can't imagine how you're finding the AI's performance acceptable.

arcady · Oct 21, 2007, 10:17 PM // 22:17

Do you lack monk elites? As you say you haven't been playing very long and you joined here this month I will assume you don't have a level 20 monk with which to have already captured some monk elite skills.

So, to that end, for protection I would suggest:

[skill]Remove Hex[/skill][skill]Guardian[/skill][skill]Aegis[/skill][skill]Protective Spirit[/skill][skill]Rebirth[/skill][skill]Reversal of Fortune[/skill][skill]Draw Conditions[/skill][skill]Divine Boon[/skill]

[skill]Divine Boon[/skill] is considered a bad skill to have, but that is mostly by people who have good elites, such as [skill]Zealous Benediction[/skill]. Without a good elite, you need some way to get max value out of your protection, and Divine Boon is a handy boost. Couple it with some good energy boosting gear (my Monk has 52 Energy) and you will be able to handle the energy costs of this build.

The build -is inferior- to having an elite skill like [skill]Life Sheath[/skill] or [skill]Zealous Benediction[/skill]. But for lacking any elites, it works. It got my monk through to level 20 and up to Sanctum Cay, Kaening, Yolon, and unlocking Pyro, and on another monk up to Kodunar Crossroads (where she capped Zealous Benediction).

[skillGuardian[/skill] is duplicative of [skill]Aegis[/skill], but it still helps to have both as you can spam Guardian on the people at risk after Aegis runs out and before it recharges, and my heroes seem smart enough to know when this is.

[skill]Reversal of Fortune[/skill] is a great low cost spam spell for a protection monk.

[skill]Remove Hex[/skill] is not bad, but a Hero might be able to time [skill]Holy Veil[/skill]. Test those out, and pick one.

[skill]Draw Conditions[/skill] is low cost and removes all the conditions on the target. It puts them on the caster, but heals the caster as well. I find this very usable, and the heal is handy enough that I can use it even when low on health and not have to worry about those conditions taking me down.

[skill]Rebirth[/skill] is the best rez to put on a hero, in my opinion, as it teleports the target to the position of the caster. It has a range just larger than aggro, so it is a great way of getting dead characters out of aggro. Never use it on a Wammo, even out of combat, as their instinct is to run back into combat, and they will just get you back into aggro. Wammo players are best left to stew in their juices for a minute or two, wammo heroes can be flagged to not attack before rezzing.

I've never had a problem with my heroes spamming too much [skill]Protective Spirit[/skill] other than noticing that henchies will sometimes cast it on me even if I already have it on me from casting it myself - I assume from starting their cast while I was doing mine (am currently experimenting to see if I can prevent this by casting the spell only with a control-click to call it out). If you do have this problem, swap in [skill]Shield of Absorption[/skill] in its place. Some people would say that should be swapped in place of Guardian, and keep Protective Spirit - which is how one of my two monks is built.

I have no real advice on Healing builds. My healer henchies use the builds they started with, with an elite added in, and often something like [skill]Heal Other[/skill] or the combo of [skill]Spotless_Soul[/skill] and [skill]Spotless Mind[/skill]. All I can really say is avoid [skill]Heal Area[/skill]. Wammo's like to equip it, but it helps the enemy more than it helps you - especially if you end up in melee.

Ensign · Oct 21, 2007, 11:00 PM // 23:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

I hate to disagree, but, whatever its merits as a player build, the hero AI handles this build very, very poorly.

Did you drop the Glyph of Lesser Energy (which in retrospect is a non-option)? How much energy did you put in the two variable slots?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Dunkoro spammed PS

That is exactly what I want him to do. I don't see how it can bottom out his energy almost instantly, considering he virtually always leads with GLE -> Prot Spirit -> Aegis or the equivalent when I watch him.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

When he finally did decide to cast LoD, he was often slow with it because he had to regen up to 5e first.

If he doesn't have to cast LoD until his energy has been bottomed, the damage profile of your fights is radically different from mine. Usually he uses PS and LoD on recharge for the first 10-15 seconds of a fight, after which several enemies are dead and LoD is no longer necessary.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Unless you are disabling PS and using it manually, (or your Dunkoro is just smarter than mine,) I can't imagine how you're finding the AI's performance acceptable.

It is very likely that I expect very different things out of the AI than you do. Personally I just want my Monks to spam Protspirit and LoD for the 10-20 seconds it takes for a mob to unload its initial barrage, and for my party to get other defensive measures in place and/or score critical kills that neutralize the mob.

If you prefer to dump the entire defensive burden of your team on your Monks, you're probably going to have to drop back into a 3 Monk team with dedicated healers, and probably be bipping those as well. I don't know the first thing about setting up heroes to play in that sort of team, though.

Celestial_Kitsune · Oct 22, 2007, 12:23 AM // 00:23

How hybrid monk heroes compare to necro heroes in PvE?

Chthon · Oct 22, 2007, 12:52 AM // 00:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Did you drop the Glyph of Lesser Energy (which in retrospect is a non-option)?

I did (which in retrospect, I should have tested before posting).

Quote:

How much energy did you put in the two variable slots?

I put in two 5ers.

Quote:

That is exactly what I want him to do.

I don't think you really want him tossing it on people who took a tiny bit of splash damage and then don't get get again at all for the whole duration. More often than I'd have liked he was scoring a small DF heal and zero damage prevented thanks to his poor target selection. I know that the AI is hit and miss with putting prot where it belongs, but he was very "miss." Also, he really did seem to be using it as a straight heal when kiss would have been better. PS is a great spell, but the hero AI seriously overprioritizes it in this build.

Quote:

I don't see how it can bottom out his energy almost instantly,

Four or five casts plus a cure hex or dismiss condition or two sinks him. I'd say he's totally spent after 20 sec or so, less if HRT triggers for him a couple times.

Quote:

considering he virtually always leads with GLE -> Prot Spirit -> Aegis or the equivalent when I watch him.

I'll give it another ruin with GoLE and see what happens...

Quote:

If he doesn't have to cast LoD until his energy has been bottomed, the damage profile of your fights is radically different from mine. Usually he uses PS and LoD on recharge for the first 10-15 seconds of a fight, after which several enemies are dead and LoD is no longer necessary.

1. It's not that he doesn't have to; it's that he should but he doesn't. I'm watching red bars go way down, but he pretty much refuses to touch LoD or Kiss unless PS is recharging or he's below 10e. He uses them occasionally, but they are very underprioritized, and it sometimes lead to deaths.

2. I'm sure the damage profile of my fights is radically different from yours. I get the impression that you spend most of your time in the parts of hard mode where every hit the monsters make triggers PS. I ran this particular test in NM Hell's Precipice because I'm skill capping for the title and that's where the next skill on my list was. (NM b/c it's a LOT faster than HM over he length of couple hundred caps.)

Quote:

It is very likely that I expect very different things out of the AI than you do. Personally I just want my Monks to spam Protspirit and LoD for the 10-20 seconds it takes for a mob to unload its initial barrage, and for my party to get other defensive measures in place and/or score critical kills that neutralize the mob.

Ultimately, it boils down to staying alive. If the AI can manage that, I really don't much care how it does it. As for stopping the initial volley of damage so that the rest of the team can activate defenses and/or spike the troublemakers, that's not really practical with 4 henchmen in a team, given their low ability to do either. For that matter, it's not very practical with 4 builds designed by some of my guildmates... and I'm not going to be the one to break that news to them...

Quote:

If you prefer to dump the entire defensive burden of your team on your Monks, you're probably going to have to drop back into a 3 Monk team with dedicated healers, and probably be bipping those as well. I don't know the first thing about setting up heroes to play in that sort of team, though.

Truthfully, the Mhenlo + Lina backline works passably for some 99% of NM PvE and a good 60-70% of HM PvE. As much maligned as they are, you'd be surprised what you can do with one crappy dedicated healer, plus one crappy dedicated prot.

Perhaps the difference is that this build was designed around the presumption that after prot-ing and (sorta) healing for 20 sec, there'd be wards up, and TntF/SY up, and weakness and blind and curses flying around, so being bottomed out on energy wouldn't be a huge problem. Instead I paired it with teammates like Little Thom and Cynn and it just collapsed.

Yichi · Oct 22, 2007, 01:12 AM // 01:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Assuming you're playing in an 8 man area, LoD/Prot is the best Hero Monk to take. If you take 2 Hero Monks, the second Monk should also be LoD/Prot. If you take 3 Hero Monks, I'm pretty sure the 3rd one should be LoD/Prot as well.

Bars should be:

Light of Deliverance
Dwayna's Kiss
Dismiss Condition
Cure Hex
Protective Spirit or Spirit Bond (always at least one Prot Spirit)
Aegis / Shield of Absorption / Signet of Rejuvenation / Guardian (pick two)
Glyph of Lesser Energy (or a res if you really need one here)

12+1+1 Healing Prayers
9+1 Protection
9+1 Divine Favor

(can swap the attribues to 8+1/10+1 if you don't need the breakpoint)

This is the exact bar, as you know, that I run on myself and on my hero monk at all times with one exception, for the 8th skill i run Healing Whisper for the 8th skill on that bar. It is an incredibly efficient power heal that the heroes use very well. I can think of one time i had to bring a different bar only to protect that dumbass armored sarus in HM.

This is the bar I run on talkorah, dunkoro and myself in 99.9% of situations (ogden is set up for smiting):

14 Healing Prayers (12+1+1)
11 Protection Prayers (10+1)
9 Divine Favor (8+1)

[skill]Dismiss Condition[/skill][skill]Light of Deliverance[/skill][skill]Dwayna's Kiss[/skill][skill]Healing Whisper[/skill][skill]Cure Hex[/skill][skill]Protective Spirit[/skill][skill]Aegis[/skill][skill]Glyph of lesser Energy[/skill]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

I hate to disagree, but, whatever its merits as a player build, the hero AI handles this build very, very poorly. I tried it out yesterday specifically because you posted it, and it was just painful to watch. Dunkoro spammed PS pretty much to the exclusion of everything else on the bar (except for cure hex and dismiss condition), often on targets that didn't need it, and bottomed out his energy pretty much instantly at the start of every fight as a result. It often seemed like he was trying to use PS like a straight heal for the DF bonus, even though he had kiss available... When he finally did decide to cast LoD, he was often slow with it because he had to regen up to 5e first. Unless you are disabling PS and using it manually, (or your Dunkoro is just smarter than mine,) I can't imagine how you're finding the AI's performance acceptable.

I dont see where youre having any problems with this build on heroes. My heroes run this bar very well. The heroes will not just spam dwaynas kiss mindlessly. They do however use it very well when enchants are on a target taking damage or hexes are flying around. I run this build on my monk as well as my Talkora in almost every situation, in NM and HM, in every campaign and have never had the problem with it that you seem to be having.

Ensign · Oct 22, 2007, 02:14 AM // 02:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

I don't think you really want him tossing it on people who took a tiny bit of splash damage and then don't get get again at all for the whole duration.

My experience is that it tends to go up on someone as soon as they take a hit for more than 10% of their health, or drop below roughly half. I'm not used to seeing it used on small bits of splash damage, likely because the brunt of the hit is what gets the prot.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

1. It's not that he doesn't have to; it's that he should but he doesn't. I'm watching red bars go way down, but he pretty much refuses to touch LoD or Kiss unless PS is recharging or he's below 10e. He uses them occasionally, but they are very underprioritized, and it sometimes lead to deaths.

There is a bit of a lag when it comes to using LoD, usually a few seconds. It's annoying but I generally don't view it as critical. LoD is so much better than every alternative that I can deal with suboptimal usage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

2. I'm sure the damage profile of my fights is radically different from yours. I get the impression that you spend most of your time in the parts of hard mode where every hit the monsters make triggers PS.

Eh, not really, until recently I spent most of my time in normal mode (EotN). Perhaps part of the difference there, though, is that I grab hard mode optimized heroes and walk through normal mode (c+space etc). The Monks don't have to do very much most of the time and end up wanding quite a bit, since the other heroes and myself are chipping in quite a bit.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

As for stopping the initial volley of damage so that the rest of the team can activate defenses and/or spike the troublemakers, that's not really practical with 4 henchmen in a team, given their low ability to do either.

When playing with hero/hench, it's almost always better to fill your 3 hero slots with Paragons and Necromancers, and using that infrastructure to support the hench Monks. The hench Monks may be weak, but they're a whole lot better than most of the other henchmen, especially outside of EotN.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Truthfully, the Mhenlo + Lina backline works passably for some 99% of NM PvE and a good 60-70% of HM PvE.

I did quite a bit of Hard Mode that way. The hench Monks aren't very good, but are passable, and with enough support from the rest of the team even crappy Monks can get you through all but the tightest spots.

Which, I guess, gets to the sort of Monk design above - it doesn't matter if they underperform in typical fights, since henchies can do that...I need them to perform in nastier fights, where Prot Spirit, LoD, and removal spam is what's necessary. If you wanted to maximize your Monk's performance for typical fights, you'd take a slightly different bar.

Div · Oct 22, 2007, 02:36 AM // 02:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Truthfully, the Mhenlo + Lina backline works passably for some 99% of NM PvE and a good 60-70% of HM PvE.

Yeah, I got kicked from my own group because Mhenlo and Lina were so much better than me at monking

arcady · Oct 22, 2007, 03:42 AM // 03:42

Honestly every class of hero performs passably about the same in PvE. You don't go for human players because you need them, you go for them because you want them.

I willingly PUG despite the players often being worse than Heroes at working together, because I want the human interaction.

Its particularly striking with melee classes and rangers. The Heroes there have, for me, almost always outperformed humans - and I will admit that includes me when I try to play a Dervish (I've never played a ranger and my highest warrior is level 6). For me its philosophical disjunct - I think like a caster, particularly a support character like a monk (or Druid/Shaman in WoW, Defender in CoH). But for many, its the wammo factor - which is not at all unique to GW.

But I still take along humans when I can, even though I know, even with skilled guildmates, that by bringing a human playing a melee character, I'm probably increasing the chance of failure.

(Mesmers so far are the only exception for me on this - I don't think I play a very good Mesmer, but I do think I can outperform Gwen. I've yet to get another player of a Mesmer into a PUG - they seem to be very rare in PvE...)

So... back to point... I would agree than NPC monks are usually passable. Though I prefer Hero monks over hench monks if for no other reason that I have more individualized flagging control - and I find that I need that for monks more often than for other classes.

Chthon · Oct 22, 2007, 04:11 AM // 04:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

My experience is that it tends to go up on someone as soon as they take a hit for more than 10% of their health, or drop below roughly half. I'm not used to seeing it used on small bits of splash damage, likely because the brunt of the hit is what gets the prot.

I think I was unclear. What I'm seeing is Dunk throwing it on someone in response to someone taking a small bit of splash damage. Problem is they don't have aggro, so they don't get hit again and the whole 10e goes to waste as nothing more than a really expensive DF heal.

Quote:

There is a bit of a lag when it comes to using LoD, usually a few seconds. It's annoying but I generally don't view it as critical. LoD is so much better than every alternative that I can deal with suboptimal usage.

I'm getting more comfortable with it. I was trying Livia as a HBoon+HealParty N/Mo today. Thanks to MB Olias, I can't run her out of energy - she's sitting there with full energy the whole time, but I'll be damned if she'll use HP without me clicking it. People die and she still won't use it. By comparison, Dunk is doing a little bet better on prioritizing LoD.

Quote:

When playing with hero/hench, it's almost always better to fill your 3 hero slots with Paragons and Necromancers, and using that infrastructure to support the hench Monks. The hench Monks may be weak, but they're a whole lot better than most of the other henchmen, especially outside of EotN.

I agree completely. The performance difference between the well-designed damage-dealing hero and a damage-dealing hench is much much bigger than the difference between a well-designed monk hero (or monk replacement hero) and the monk hench. I've just assumed for purposes of this thread that filling the other 4 spots on the team with non-hench wasn't an issue for OP, so I didn't mention it.

bungusmaximus · Oct 22, 2007, 07:13 AM // 07:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celestial_Kitsune

How hybrid monk heroes compare to necro heroes in PvE?

Necro heroes are better on the energy, but you notice the difference when you don't have LoD and/or good hex removal.

Yichi · Oct 22, 2007, 06:06 PM // 18:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

By comparison, Dunk is doing a little bet better on prioritizing LoD.

Try using talkora. Believe it or not, she appears to me more adapt at running the bar I posted than dunkoro, but both should run it without too much of a problem as its a fairly simple bar to run.

Spazzer · Oct 22, 2007, 06:30 PM // 18:30

[Edit] Gotta love how those eotn skills are unknown.

12 Divine Favor
12 Smiting Prayers

- Signet of Judgment [E]
- Castigation Signet
- Divine Boon
- Smiter's Boon
- Reversal of Damage
- Smite Condition
- Smite Hex
- Death Pact Signet

If you have a MM in your party, give him Heal Area. In fact, give him two Heal Areas. This will reduce your dependency on Light of Deliverance. In general play, your henchmen are going to be balled up in any situation you will need a party-wide heal--Heal Area is perfect for those situations.

Brood_Star · Oct 22, 2007, 10:52 PM // 22:52

NO PROT SPIRIT ON MONK BARS UNLESS YOU'RE MONITORING

i'm personally a lazy hoe so i run

[card]Light of Deliverance[/card][card]Dwayna's Kiss[/card][card]Dismiss Condition[/card]Cure Hex[card]Guardian[/card][card]Shield of Absorption[/card] Dual Mesmer Interrupt/GoLE + Prot